Automated Transcript
Steve Baker-Wise, Early Careers Manager: As part of our celebrations for National Apprenticeship Week, I’m really pleased to say today I’m joined by Ross and Blair, who are going to bring their stories to life about the apprenticeships they’re doing. We are really infused by the theme this year, which is skills for life. I’m passionate about apprenticeships and passionate about the skills that they can offer people, and how they can help their careers grow. I think it’d be really great by starting with some introduction, so gents, tell us a bit about yourselves and the role.
Blair McWhinnie, Team Leader: My name is Blair McWhinnie, I’ve been at Gamma coming up for 10 years, and in the last 18 months or so, recently became a Team Leader within the porting and the numbering team, and that’s kind of one of the reasons why I was interested in the leadership apprenticeship, and just to learn a bit more skills, bit more of the theory behind some of the work that I’ve been undertaking, and yeah, just have a bit of appreciation for that for my role just now, and moving forward in my career.
Ross Craig, Team Leader: I’m Ross Craig, I have been at Gamma now for seven years. I’m Team Leader for just about six of those, it was my first Team Leader role that I’ve undertaken, and likewise with Blair, it’s a case of this apprenticeship has given me a chance to kind of enhance skills and learn new things and look at what I have been doing and how I could improve.
Steve: Thanks gents. Well, obviously, you know, you both described you’re both doing leadership and management apprenticeships, which is a really great development space to be in. Got to start by asking a bit more obviously. Blair, you touched upon the idea that this is your first sort of leadership role, so what inspired you to do the apprenticeship?
Blair: More so that it was just a practical opportunity to have something on a bit of paper to say that I’ve actually gone and achieved something. But more so that I would genuinely learn new skills and be better at my role.
Steve: Okay, and for yourself Ross, a bit more of a veteran in leadership now though.
Ross: Yeah, that’s one way to look at it. So, I think the real reason I went for the apprenticeship was slightly different in that I’m undertaking apprenticeship that’s maybe above the level that I’m on. In terms of more looking at the kind of operations management side of things as well, and I think the main reason was that where there’s not an opportunity at the moment to progress, I’m seeing this as a way of learning more about that role and getting myself ready for when that progression opportunity comes up. So, it’s… really gave me a chance to look at as I say the skills I have and where I need my skills to be to kind of make that jump or make that progression when it comes along, or whenever it comes along.
Steve: Great, so by contrast, you know, Blair, you’re all there setting the foundations making sure you’re really establishing yourself as a competent team leader, and yeah Ross, obviously you’re looking at now where you go next and how you can be ready for that to happen. So, apprenticeships to your point Blair, they are a really practical way of learning, okay, and I know that’s part of the reason why I’m passionate about them. They force individuals to take things back into their day-to-day work and do that. How have you both found doing an apprenticeship? You know, it’s potentially the first learning you’ve both done in a while, I’m not sure.
Blair: Absolutely. The biggest part for me is learning on the job, and actually using the skills that I’ve been learning about to actually show and develop what work in the practical sense. I think that’s the key thing about the apprenticeship; you’re learning the theory, but you’re also given the opportunity to go and apply that learning through the theory. But it’s also amazing how much you’re already doing, so it’s just documenting the why you’re doing things and how you’re doing it, because you’re already doing it, being in the role already. So, having that opportunity to say this is why we’re actually doing this, this is the theory behind it, gives you a better understanding of the tasks at hand really.
Steve: And for yourself Ross. I mean, sort of what’s it been like? What’s the experience been like over the last few months?
Ross: I think the main thing for me is it’s opened my eyes to kind of two things mainly. It’s one… it’s probably the time management piece. I know it’s something we might touch on later, but for me, it’s about realising that I need to take time to develop myself, and actually take that time to really help. Take the time to think about what I’m doing, take the time to actually look at the bigger picture, and I think the main thing for me is really, like Blair, was saying is what we do day in, day out, we do without much thought behind it. Sometimes you just do it. It’s almost instinct. The apprenticeships have given me a chance to actually take time to reflect on decisions I have made in the past, but also make me think more about the decisions I’m making moving forward, so it’s helped me really kind of plan things more and think through process more as opposed to just go right into kind of instinct mode.
Steve: That’s quite an interesting point. Obviously we’re talking about leadership and management apprenticeship here, and you’re talking about the theories of sort of time management planning etc. I think this is about, you know, really starting to get into the conversation around the skills and the skills for life, you know, time management and planning and forethought of what you’re going to do. You know, they don’t just exclusively happen in leadership and management. They’re skills that you can use all throughout your careers. And it’s interesting … I want to touch upon a word you used there, which was around challenging and alike. I’m a big believer that to grow, you need to be challenged, and obviously appreciate you’re both quite early in your apprenticeship journey, but have you experienced any of that challenge yet, and can you reflect on any growth already as an individual?
Blair: I think, yeah, a healthy challenge I would describe it, and personally speaking, I haven’t done any form of formal education since leaving high school, so that’s, you know, funny being back in that scenario, and brings back some memories of having to study and set time aside to actually go and learn some theory. But I would, yeah, describe it as a healthy challenge, and I think overcoming some of those obstacles in your way you can say, yep, that’s part one done, onto the next thing, and yeah, just kind of, going from strength to strength. To say that was tricky, but overcame that, what’s next and kind of bring it on.
Ross: I think, for me, I would agree with what Blair is saying there. It’s a healthy challenge. What I like about it… the challenge we deal with work is unpredictable. It’s people management, it’s stakeholder management and things that you can’t control necessarily. The challenge of this… it’s going back to education, which is something I say I’ve done. It’s been longer than Blair unfortunately for me since I’ve done anything like this, but the support of obviously the people involved has been brilliant for that side, but as I say, the challenge actually something we can control, so I kind of look at this as a positive challenge, whereas the day-to-day stuff can be quite… it’s unpredictable. You can have the best laid plan for an entire week, and it can just be thrown to the side the minute you have absence, all these things. This is a challenge which I can control, and I like that element of it.
Steve: Okay, I’m going to touch on something that you just said there as well, which was about support. Obviously, both of you been out of formal education for many years now. I’m really interested to understand how you found the support, perhaps of the apprenticeship provider, your line manager, and anyone else that’s within that network as well actually? Because this is changed for you, you know, sort of, you’ve got to balance this alongside the job, personal life. How’s it been for you?
Blair: I think, first of all, the support from my line manager. I would say it’s been absolutely fantastic, there’s never been a time where I’ve not had the opportunity to take myself away, even during working hours, to go and work and fine tune about a bit of work for the apprenticeship. And again, I would say shadowing the assessor that we’ve been dealing with has personally been fantastic, and every catch up call that we have and very informative, obviously, knows the course inside out, can help and direct and help find tune and steer you on the right path without giving you all the answers and information, which is good and it comes back to that challenge point… it’s nobody’s doing it for you, you’re having to go and achieve it yourself, but yeah, the support from the assessor and within Gamma has been fantastic.
Rich: So, for me, the support probably starts actually with you at the very start when apprenticeships were being mentioned across the company. I approached you to kind of talk about it and registered my interest, not just for me, but for the other people within my team, because there’s a lot of people who want to kind of further their knowledge development and branch out into other areas. So, from the very first kind of conversation I had with yourself, there was great support from you, which was brilliant, and which then led to obviously the first meeting we had with Elite, obviously they said the people who’ be dealing with, and I can’t echo enough what Blair said, is that the support from them has been fantastic, and the assessor and even the person we met to kind of originally sign us up, they’re available, they’re supportive, and they don’t make you feel daft, they don’t make you feel kind of silly if you’re on the wrong path, or you’ve… one of the things I was dealing with, I’d clearly not read the question right, and instead I realised, when she was going through it, I’d made a bit of a mistake, and it’s one of these things she had an opportunity there to either kind of go, come on, like, you could have done better than that, or… and made me feel a little bit daft, and that’s at this point, when you’re learning, I’m 39 now, I’m at that age now where I don’t like to be wrong. I like to know… think I’m right all the time, but she approached it in a really supportive way, and it’s been fantastic, and likewise as well with Laura, our line manager, she’s been absolutely brilliant. She’s a self-confessed kind of dweeb in terms of she loves education, she loves learning, and she loves doing these things. So, to have someone like her available for support has been brilliant.
Steve: It’s wonderful to hear that the support network around you, and yeah, Cheryl the coach, Elite, her, by the sounds of things, her support and input for you, both has been brilliant, and obviously that will continue over the development of your apprenticeship. And I think the wonderful thing there as well is that she’ll get to know you more and more, and will only help to push you to your full potential. Obviously we’ve spoke a bit about the support element for it, but how has it actually been? So, both doing full-time jobs, having personal lives as well, actually, what’s the impact been like for you on just life in general? Have you noticed anything? Does it fit in nicely?
Blair: Think for myself, there is a new element of… you need to set some time aside, you need to be responsible with your own time management. The good thing that… it being an apprenticeship is there’s a lot of practical elements that you do in your role, so and I know Ross, you think the same, we’ll often face situations and there’s some… there’s a light bulb moment in the back, thinking this is going to be great. Evidence for when I’m doing my modules, and so it’s good. So, it’s funny how often that sort of light bulb pops up, but again, I would say, you know, in personal life, you know, you always need balance and management, but that’s part of one of the modules about how you manage your time and whatever else. So, it’s part and parcel of it, and you know, you’re going to achieve something and have a certificate by the end, which is… so yeah, you do need to put in a bit of work. It doesn’t come easy, no one does it for you. You do need to go and achieve it still.
Ross: I think for me, it’s difficult… it was difficult at the start making time for myself. I’m not someone who has really looked at my own development. So, in the past six years, I’ve not really taken time to look at what I want or what I need for my own development, and I think that this has actually given me a chance to take that step back and realise that I need to be able to progress, to be able to take further opportunities. I need to be able to develop myself. I think as part of a team leader, your focus is always on the team, it’s always on the people, it’s on the numbers, it’s on all the things that you can see and deal with, and this has helped me really take time for myself. The difficulty with that is making the time. Previous to this, I was really bad at it. I would fill my time with things that needed done for other people more so, and it was only recently we had training for management, which I know obviously Steve you’re with us in, and that was two days with no laptops, two days where we had no dealings with the outside teams, with the outside world, and that was the biggest eye opener for me; that I can go away for two days and things won’t burn down, and we can carry on, and I needed that more so than I thought, because the minute I came to the apprenticeship side of things, taking two hours out my day, no longer is now something I’m terrified of. I’m confident in doing that, knowing that the world will still turn, will keep moving, the team will be fine. The support’s there. So, I think had you asked me this six months ago, I’d be really struggling making that time for myself, but funnily enough, that management training, that two days was the best thing that could happen, because it made me realise that I can make time for myself to improve and learn, so it’s been an eyeopener.
Steve: Okay brilliant, thanks. I want to tease open a point you mentioned there as well obviously, which is you spoke about taking time out for yourself. I’d be interested to know whether you feel like that is actually having a positive impact on the teams that you lead. Obviously, you mentioned a bit about empowerment there, but maybe about some of these skills you’re developing. Do you feel like that time away, and those skills that you’re honing or developing for fresh are coming back into the workplace, and effectively the time pays itself off perhaps?
Blair: Yeah, I think… we’re both in leadership roles, we’re both doing leadership apprenticeships. I think good leaders lead by example, and demonstrating some of the positive aspects and skills that we’ve been learning, and as you say, honing in. I really do think it is having a positive influence across our teams and the department, and hopefully Gamma as a whole. If I can be a role model and people can say, look at him, he’s demonstrating the Gamma values the way they should be, and applying them in the correct methods, if that inspires other people to do the same, do similar, take a bit appreciation for how to approach situations, and I think that will benefit not only myself, but the team wider in Gamma as a whole, which I’m really looking forward to.
Steve: Great.
Ross: I think for me, it’s about… the apprenticeship’s really made me start to think more about the bigger picture, and not just about directly… not be so… I’m trying to think of the word… reactive and planning ahead further, and what this is enabling me to do is if I’m planning my time better for my own development, it’s meaning what I’m able to then do is help the team, be there for support and plan their time, and it’s improved my delegation as well. A lot of… I was a bit, I don’t know if the term is gatekeeper, but I like to kind of… if I get something, I like to control it, I like to look after it, see it through, which is a good attribute, and I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but the problem is you can do that too much, and what you’re actually doing is, instead of what I think is protecting people, what I’m actually doing is stopping them from ever being exposed to certain situations. Whereas this has allowed me to actually, as I say, take more time for myself, which means I’m having to delegate more responsibility, which is great. So, I’ve got a new specialist in my team that just started in November, so what it’s enabled her to do is actually have more responsibility earlier on. Not so much that she’s going to be struggling, but to the point where, as I say, she’s having taken a little bit more responsibility than I would maybe initially have done. So, I think by taking the apprenticeship, it’s making me think more, plan better, and as well empower people in the team a lot more, which has been really good.
Steve: I think you’ve just nailed a point there which is around that empowerment, you know, sure both of you are going on this development journey which is self-led, but you’re also as well… you’re imparting skills on the team as well, which is just amazing to hear. I want to come back to the thing, which is skills for life. Okay, thinking about what you’ve already achieved on the apprenticeship, and thinking about what you’re expecting to achieve as you go on this apprenticeship journey, do you feel like you’re developing skills for life?
Blair: Undoubtedly. There is… we’re learning skills for today, tomorrow, for next weekend, forever really. These are going to be skills and opportunities for further growth and development that I hope to take right through my career with Gamma and beyond. It really is practical elements that you’re going to use day-to-day and transferable skills into different roles and responsibilities.
Steve: Sure, yeah.
Ross: I think speaking about this previously, and we kind of touched upon with our roles, and this isn’t any fault of any company or anything like that, but with team leader roles, you very quickly just learn on the job, and you have to deal with things as they come up. Seek support, seek the help, and what this is actually really doing is it’s giving us thought processes behind the decisions maybe we’ve made in the past. It’s letting us look at new ways of exploring things that maybe we haven’t been shown or maybe we’ve not had the guidance, and I can of speak about… I consider… been doing the team leader role for about five years or so, five six years now, and I think I’m good at it. I’m quite confident, I’m quite happy that I’m a supportive team leader, and I do the right thing most of the time. But I spoke about this previously with yourselves, that it’s kind of like when you pass your driving test, that’s a skill that you get for life. But as time goes on, you’ll develop bad habits, you will do little things that when it comes to driving, doing driving test again in 10 years’ time, there’s a high chance that you might fail because you’ll be making a little mistake. What this has really helped me do is, after six years, look back at maybe what I’ve been doing, and identify where I need to improve. Really reflect on kind of where my strengths are, and I think it’s positive, really good to look at the positive aspects, look at where your strengths lie, but obviously then, with that comes identifying where maybe where there’s weaknesses, or areas of improvement. So, without a doubt, this is going to make me a better leader, and better support for the department, and for those around me. And with Blair as an example, so you were relatively new into the role in comparison, and what I’ve always tried to do is support those around me, but with the apprenticeship, what I’m hoping is it’s going to give me further skills to be able to be a better support to any other aspiring leaders or anything as well.
Steve: That’s wonderful to hear, because I think this is about the journey you’re both going on, but already you’re talking about how you can share those skills and that knowledge that’s coming your way by the apprenticeship with others. That may inspire them to do an apprenticeship themselves, that might just help them in that moment and give them that thing. But I think this is where the broader takeaway is for an organisation, you know, there’s no denying we have to give you time away from the job for both of you to study. However, you’re already both making changes and impacting your current role, plus you’re sharing some of that with others, so sort of ripple effect to the skills going out through the organisation. I actually think that’s just, like, probably a wonderful place to finish the conversation today, and I can’t thank you enough for both putting yourselves forward to doing apprenticeships, sharing your stories today, and being part of National Apprenticeship Week.
Ross: Thank you.
Blair: Thank you very much for the opportunity.
