Automated Transcript
Sam Winterbottom, Public Service Director at Gamma:
Hey, Hollie. How are you?
Hollie Rose Hodgson, Head of Account Management at Tussell:
I’m good, I’m good. How are you doing, Sam?
Sam Winterbottom:
Yeah. Really good. Thanks so much for spending time to go over a couple of things we’ve done in the public sector today and, hopefully, as part of the G8 summit, so you can have a fruitful day as well.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Oh, it sounds very exciting. I’m glad to be here.
Sam Winterbottom:
Brilliant, brilliant. And yeah, just wondering if you can give the audience a brief overview, an introduction for yourself and Tussell, and then explain how we use it.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, of course. So my name is Hollie Hodgson. I’m the Head of Account Management at Tussell. We are a data provider in the UK public sector. And effectively, buyers and suppliers use us to make data-driven decisions.
Sam Winterbottom:
And I have to say, I can back that up because I’m Sam Winterbottom, Public Sector Director at Gamma. We utilise the Tussell platform for an awful lot of market intelligence and market information. Not only do we live with it, but we’re also looking to form our strategy and our go-to-market in the public sector.
Sam Winterbottom:
So a really useful tool. And of course, there is another massive event that’s happening with the new Procurement Act and the new procurement rules in the public sector. Yeah, coming through in October this year, I believe, isn’t it?
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, we’ve got that confirmed go-live date. I’m the Head of Procurement Data, so you’re speaking to the right person! There are some really exciting things like new notice types, a supplier registry, and a department list—a lot more flexibility around the types of procedures you can use.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
I think if you are a contracting authority, absolutely have a look at the guidance the government is putting out. There are some really good people pushing out the messaging, a lot of training, and procurement policy notes. There was a recent one that effectively enshrined in the Procurement Act a previous policy.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Now it’s all about taking into consideration the social outcomes in your procurement activities. So I’m excited to see the data come in. I’m always curious to see how it will transpose into action. One of the important messages I always reflect on is that the PCR, which was the previous Act’s Public Contracts Regulation, was really good legislation in terms of transparency. There’s already a lot of data out there.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
The UK, in particular, is miles ahead of many other countries around the world when it comes to what is published. Sadly, the data isn’t transposing into much usefulness for a lot of the contracting parties involved.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
It can feel a little bit like data for data’s sake. And if you can’t answer really basic questions such as how many contracts Microsoft holds, it can get a bit frustrating. Continuously having to put that information out there as a contracting authority and not being able to say, “What are contracts with Microsoft like versus the rest of the public sector? Are we overpaying for these services? And what can we learn from innovation with things like Copilot? What are other authorities doing?”
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
So I’m always inclined to believe culture eats legislation for breakfast.
Sam Winterbottom:
Absolutely.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
And you need to really drive the benefits to these contracting authorities or you’re going to see issues where transparency makes no sense.
Sam Winterbottom:
No, absolutely. But what’s the point of having loads of data if you can’t make use of it and you don’t understand what the data is telling you? So it’s really important, as you say, and that’s part of the services I know you guys provide at Tussell to the public sector. So, yeah, I mean, I think as a supplier on the supply side of things—and we both are—you know, there are some really positive things from the Procurement Act coming through, like the locker room for one set of information, so you don’t have to send out the same insurance documents to every tendering authority.
Sam Winterbottom:
Hopefully, that’s as good as it looks in my head and makes it really easy. But as you said, moving away from MEAT (Most Economically Advantageous Tender) to MAT (Most Advantageous Tender), so social value plays a bigger part. Because I think at the end of the day, let’s face it, all stakeholders—if I look at Gamma, all our stakeholders—have an interest in us being more socially valuable. To be honest, doing more around sustainability, and our people, and what we’re doing to promote careers in tech jobs and all those areas that are really important for the government as well.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, and the public sector has never said, “Buy the cheapest.” But I think the move from MEAT to MAT definitely will help in terms of driving that sort of culture change. I also think the new procedure types and just generally being a lot more flexible with how they buy can lead to some really interesting stuff with very innovative procurement teams.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
I think the best procurement people will really make use of that. What the government needs to do is ensure there is shared learning happening and that you’re not… I mean, it’s the same in any industry. If you think in the tech space, it’s really hard to get the best talent. It’s absolutely the same here, ensuring that the best people are out there, and that stories of success are being told to different teams.
Sam Winterbottom:
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you so much for the overview, Hollie. Now just diving down a little bit into our area at Gamma and in the tech space as well, what are some of the key tech trends that you’re seeing from the data, from the market data that you’re getting on the platform?
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, so definitely for both technology and for telco, it’s a huge market. If you look specifically just at telco, it’s been around £2 billion for the last couple of years. And wider, it’s between the £17-18 billion mark. Both did see huge spikes from Covid. Naturally, there was a lot of technology needed, whether it was for contact centres or things like Track and Trace. Different parts of each market have seen different changes.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
So after the Covid period, contact centres did decline, but they’ve been rising year on year. We can also see some interesting stuff with IoT. Specifically, for the telco portion, IoT is now consistently around a third of the market.
Sam Winterbottom:
And that’s incredible from a position of presumably zero, you know, five or so years ago.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, it’s really cool. I think you’re also seeing some really interesting stuff with AI. It’s something I’m always nosing around data for. I think particularly in local authorities, you see some cool stuff where it’s about operational improvements. So things like Copilot—I know Microsoft has been doing a lot around that—but also about driving citizen services and doing things a lot more proactively.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
I know something about that, something in particular like GDS (Government Digital Service), really trying out more proactive services like what they have with the single platform in Ukraine. I think that’s another. And Poland, like I was saying just the other day, something to do with road AI where it’s actually, how can we use artificial intelligence to proactively look for road improvements or changes with the weather? Then you’ve got really big projects like HPE—they call it something like Assemblage—the big supercomputer centre with the University of Bristol.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
That’s a cool one. And also, I think, like Microsoft’s supercomputer with the Met Office. Both of those are really big projects to look out for.
Sam Winterbottom:
You know, it’s a really exciting time, isn’t it? But on the AI piece—oh, let’s cover the Internet of Things first. But yeah, absolutely. No, we’re seeing a big spike in interest in machine SIMs and what’s happening in that space. And it’s all down to the push around smart cities, isn’t it? Again, going back to data and being able to collect data that’s really useful, helps you plan how a city works.
Sam Winterbottom:
So, we’re seeing a fair amount of uptake in that space, and I just think it’s going to grow exponentially as well. We’ve got an organisation, an Internet of Things organisation, called Fusion IoT. And yeah, we’re really starting to look to expand that in the UK over the next few months and years.
Sam Winterbottom:
Because the trend is the move to smart cities, and of course, there are lots of other applications as well.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Definitely. I think there’s around £300 million of rollouts over the next couple of years for IoT. So definitely something that you guys could be supporting.
Sam Winterbottom:
Yeah, it can be anything, can’t it? From parking meters to sensors on lights and all the way through. So, lots of good stuff going on and lots of stuff in the procurement pipeline as well.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, I think with broader telco as well, we’re seeing real importance around the key players involved. So if you actually look at what the data has been showing for the last year, whether it’s on a contract value or a buyer size, there is quite a big dominance of certain parties and policies.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
So if you look at the two largest purchasing powers, on the contracting authority side, I think it’s the Home Office and the DFT (Department for Transport). They represent a significant portion of telco spending. So for them, really driving better social outcomes will be important. Because if you flip the data and say who’s been doing the best with SMEs, people like the Department of Finance in Northern Ireland and the Cabinet Office dominate the list. Getting those two players to work better together, I think, would be really interesting in terms of shared lessons learned.
Sam Winterbottom:
Absolutely. Working together.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, definitely. And if you also look at the top ten telco suppliers, they represent a huge amount of the market—a huge amount. I believe it’s around two-thirds. So making sure that those sorts of suppliers, if you’re working with the classic names—BT, Virgin Media, O2 and Telefonica, people like that—that it’s really important.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Just making sure that they are also delivering better in terms of local-based outcomes, really driving local economies, working with SMEs. I know these guys are doing that, but making sure you’re holding them accountable for that.
Sam Winterbottom:
And I think that’s a really interesting point because, of course, one of the big trends we’re seeing—but it’s not a trend; it’s unfortunately a cliff face—is the ISDN switch-off in telecoms, with Openreach and Virgin Networks closing down their copper networks. And so, you know, we still have a large number of customers in this space who are going to have to procure something and find a way to replace their copper telephone lines.
Sam Winterbottom:
Essentially, there’s still a really big knowledge push that’s needed out there, and we’re trying our hardest. We’ve got—if you’ve seen it—we’ve got Morph as our ISDN switch-off mascot. But we’re really trying to bang the drum out there and have been for a couple of years because this is another massive trend that we’re seeing.
Sam Winterbottom:
Organisations, particularly in the public sector, are really going to have to make some changes because December 2025, which is when the switch-off happens, is looming. They’re going to have to have an alternative service or not need the service, because it’s going to stop. So, yeah, we really do have a mega-trend in the telecoms market as well.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Definitely, definitely. And I think, like I said, the role of those top players is important because if you look at the last few years, they just remain the same. It’s BT, Virgin Media, O2, and actually, Motorola. But Motorola, I would expect, is going to change. They’ve held that position from the Emergency Services Programme, which is now ending this year.
Sam Winterbottom:
Absolutely.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Tricky one, that one.
Sam Winterbottom:
Tricky.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
So Telefonica, I believe, is next up. But I expect that position probably will just be taken by whoever makes up that contract. I don’t think the supplier has been announced yet. I will be curious to see who benefits.
Sam Winterbottom:
Absolutely. An interesting case study from our side of things is the growth in mobile as well. There was a new framework that came out, Mobile Voice and Data Services, RM6261, for the catchy title. And there’s been some really good activity on that. And I believe public sector organisations are buying really well from it.
Sam Winterbottom:
So yeah, one of our—it’s public knowledge; I’ve seen it on your management platform—we won the Home Office mobiles. And that’s been a really exciting project to roll out. So going back to your top departments for spend…
Sam Winterbottom:
Yeah, really pleased with the stuff on that. But yeah, it’s great to see it appearing in the reports as well.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
The transparency frameworks are a really good way for contracting authorities to get a better deal with suppliers. It’s much clearer if you’re buying something with a predetermined price set on it, rather than having to do a lot of negotiation. And particularly, I think Covid was almost like a wake-up call for contracting authorities.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
And the huge uptick in the use of call-offs is very visible in Tussell, but it has absolutely continued. If you look at the major players or the broader market, about a quarter of frameworks are being used for over half of everything that’s going through these days. So it’s definitely good news if you want to get a better deal.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
And I think for suppliers, it’s really important to know which frameworks to get on, and for buyers to know which ones are best to use. If you look at something like cybersecurity, you’re going to use very different frameworks from what you’re going to use for a large-scale transformation project.
Sam Winterbottom:
It’s really interesting you talk about cybersecurity because I just wanted to touch on that as well. We at Gamma recently acquired a company called Satisnet, which is a managed security services company. They have a managed SOC and a raft of other features as well. And so we’re really looking to get into cybersecurity in the public sector.
Sam Winterbottom:
What are your thoughts around the opportunity in cybersecurity? Because obviously, part of our go-to-market strategy is, what do we think the market size is? And how do we best service it?
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Cybersecurity is definitely a growing market. It’s becoming more and more important, whether you’re in central government—where I think it’s historically always been very large—or particularly for local authorities as well. If you look at things like Hackney, which had that cyber breach, it’s really important that citizens’ data is being best protected 100%.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
We often see things like G-Cloud being frequently used, particularly for buying the software piece, whereas things more like cybersecurity services—which is the Big Six framework—so it’s got a constant pool of suppliers being added. That, I would say, is being used for a lot more of the services side. The MoJ is a really big one.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
It naturally has to procure a lot of cybersecurity. I know they got quite a lot of press quite recently over one of their breaches, and it just shows how important it is for a dedicated budget for contracting authorities to deal with these sorts of problems. If you have one cyberattack, for example, at your local council, think about how important it is to have things in place like digital twins to ensure these systems can continue to operate.
Sam Winterbottom:
And I think that’s a really important point. We’ve recently got on, as you mentioned, the Cyber Security Services DPS—DPS being you can join it at any time—after the Satisnet acquisition. And it’s really interesting, some of the projects that are flowing through there. So, I think there are a large number of contracts coming up for renewal, but also, technology and cybersecurity change all the time, don’t they?
Sam Winterbottom:
And there are always going to be bad actors out there. It’s a question of staying up to date and really thinking ahead of the game, isn’t it? So, yeah, we’re looking forward to doing much more in the public sector around cybersecurity.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, that’s one of the areas—there’s not often a framework agreement or DPS (in this case, soon to be DPS+) that can exceed its estimated value. The very nature of these agreements is that nothing can go over them. Usually, the estimations you see are just that—estimations. Just because they say, “Oh, this has a potential value of £50 billion,” doesn’t mean £50 billion might actually go through it. But for that cybersecurity DPS, they are literally almost about to exceed the estimated value.
Sam Winterbottom:
Flying.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, I expect CCS will be updating that value soon. But because it’s the DPS anyway, it won’t really change in terms of suppliers being able to get on it. Usually, if a framework is about to exceed its value, then they should open that framework up to make sure they can bring in more innovative suppliers to work on it.
Sam Winterbottom:
And I think the new Procurement Act’s got some more flexible types of frameworks as well. So, yeah…
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yes.
Sam Winterbottom:
Plus…
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Yeah, that’s going to dominate.
Sam Winterbottom:
I got my head round it yesterday. I mean, you have to.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
I don’t want to give too much guidance on it, but there’s a lot of stuff from the Cabinet Office in terms of guidance on getting those sorts of frameworks to market. And like I said, I think generally there’ll be a lot more flexibility with procedures anyway. But I think DPS is already good, just because particularly in innovative markets like cybersecurity, or if you’re thinking about delivering social care services, you need a constant turnover for these sorts of suppliers.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Some markets don’t tend to be the most profitable, I suppose—social care is quite a good example. So the financial stability of those suppliers is really important. Ensuring they can’t be locked out of delivering such important services to the public sector is crucial.
Sam Winterbottom:
Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, it’s going to be game-changing, isn’t it, I think? And as you said, health is a big area. You know, whatever the government is, I know that spending on health is going to go up.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Definitely. Our founder always said there are three big Ds in the public sector: decarbonisation, defence, and data. Those are some of the key areas to watch out for, especially in the NHS. We’ve got an ageing population, we have fragmented datasets, and we really need to be able to drive a lot of efficiency in how things are delivered.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
In terms of how that compares to the rest of the public sector, the NHS has seen a huge increase already in terms of IT and telco spend. So those are definitely areas I would keep my eye on.
Sam Winterbottom:
But you know, I still think it’s largely down to suppliers as well to approach innovation in such a way that we really help organisations to get the most from their budgets and do more with less. You hear it all the time, but actually, you need to deliver that as a supplier.
Sam Winterbottom:
Some of these challenges can be overcome with technology and by moving digital. So there’s a really… yeah, this is just going to be a growing space, I think.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Definitely, yeah.
Sam Winterbottom:
But it really does boil down to suppliers wanting to make a difference, being proactive, and being innovative.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Definitely. So many buyers or suppliers just react to requirements coming in. And the best way to be successful in the public sector, whether it’s about driving better procurement outcomes or wanting to grow in the public sector as a supplier or partner up with other suppliers, I think staying ahead is really important.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Don’t sit on your hands. Really look at what other people are doing. What data can we utilise to make those better outcomes? Just constantly reacting to tenders is not an efficient way of doing it. And usually, a tender is the culmination of a lot of the procurement activities. You know, there are some things that you can’t just imagine.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
When I see a tender, I’m thinking it’s been written with someone in mind, because they’ve done all of that pre-engagement. They’ve had someone telling them, “This is what you need. This is going to drive better outcomes.”
Sam Winterbottom:
It really is that important to be proactive, as you say. And the other thing—I really like you using the word outcomes because I think that’s so important. What do you want to achieve? And don’t tell us the technology that you think you need to get there—just what you want to achieve, and then let the suppliers be really creative and innovative about how you get the things that meet the outcome.
Sam Winterbottom:
You’re looking for a vast array of ideas and concepts, rather than specific technologies.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Definitely, you know, just…
Sam Winterbottom:
It creates that creativity, doesn’t it?
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
So there’s a really good book by Peter Smith called Bad Buying, for any candidates out there. And it really just talks about how you should be outcome-focused in your procurement activities. There’s a really good example around wanting to buy something you could write with in space and going through all its technological designs, and then it’s like, “Oh, a pencil would do.”
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
And just focusing a lot more on the outcomes rather than the impactful.
Sam Winterbottom:
Yeah. No, well, I mean, really, really useful having this chat. I think that’s potentially a wrap, so thank you very much for taking the time to discuss all things procurement. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.
Hollie Rose Hodgson:
Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Sam Winterbottom:
Thank you.
